Matthew MacDougall, MD is a world expert in brain stimulation, repair, and augmentation and the head neurosurgeon at Neuralink.
Andrew Huberman hosts Matthew MacDougall to discuss Neuralink’s mission and various projects to develop and use neural implant technologies to improve neurological conditions, and movement in paralyzed patients, enhance learning and cognition, and much more.
Host: Andrew Huberman (@hubermanlab)
The brain is basically a collection of functional modules attached to your head
Anything and everything that comes out of the brain can go wrong – it’s a high-stakes organ when it comes to injury and operation
Unfortunately, many neurosurgeries to keep someone alive can significantly impair function and quality of life
  • For example, lateral damage to the frontal lobes can leave someone with little to no impulse control (Dr. MacDougall has seen this post-surgery)
The brain is a hard organ to protect – the design of the skull does leave humans open to vulnerabilities
Most traumatic brain injuries are car accidents, environmental accidents, and falls – not sports
  • Most TBI is from sharper object coming in contact with the head
Previously inoperable tumors or surgeries that had catastrophic collateral damage are now much safer thanks to improved technology and surgery with the use of direct MRI visualization
Sleep deprivation has broad effects all over the brain, from hallucinations to decreased motor coordination
Neuroplasticity is the brain’s ability to form and strengthen connections, particularly related to bouts of learning
Plasticity decreases with age – it’s harder to learn new things, kick old habits, bring in new habits
Machines aren’t necessarily the future of improving plasticity because it involves altering the entire brain whereas machines are highly specialized and focus
  • “Plasticity research will bear the most fruit when it focuses on pharmacologic agents.” – Dr. Matthew MacDougall
Adults humans are vulnerable to losing small parts of their brains and function
Neuralink makes neural implants and delivers with a robotic insertion device that helps place tiny electrodes smaller than a human hair throughout a region of the brain
Robots (vs humans) are better equipped to maintain the steadiness required to implant the electrodes in the right area
  • Surgeons still do the cruder parts of opening the skin and skull
“Broadly speaking, the mission of Neuralink is to reduce human suffering, at least in the near term.” – Dr. Matthew MacDougall
The first indication is to repair motor movement in people with spinal cord injury or paralysis using an external mouse and computer software to decode motor intentions  
  • Eventually, they hope to restore motor control in the patient, for now, the focus is on establishing the agency in the movement of things in the world and eventually the body
  • Neuralink doesn’t currently have the capability to alter mood, sleep regulation, addiction, etc. but hopes to eventually – for now, motor control is the focus
  • In the long-term, they’re hoping to bring AI embedded in the brain to augment human capabilities (but that’s far down the road)
Neuralink isn’t currently focused on combining technology with pharmaceuticals or psychedelics – the current focus is on decoding the brain through electrical stimulation recording
Neuralink has reached a safety threshold beyond the standard of care and FDA-approved surgeries
Fun fact: Tesla is trying to make effort to alert sleepy/distracted drivers to pay attention to the road, maybe with a little camera in the rearview mirror (MacDougall wasn’t sure of how the technology works)
About animal research: because of FDA and research governing bodies, you have to start work on non-human animals to solve biological system problems – you can’t experiment on humans first
  • Neuralink goes to great lengths to make sure animals are treated well and play for reward (as opposed to other labs that water deprive animals and make them work for water and basic needs)
  • Pigs are used to test safety, monkeys are used to test the efficacy
Note: Neuralink hosts symposiums to discuss goals and progress
Radiofrequency identification device (RFID): small implantable chip with data that connects to devices such as phones and door lock
  • They’re passive, there’s no battery or need to charge – it can last a lifetime
There’s an interesting proof of concept behind it for niche use
Implantation is an outpatient procedure, all materials are completely human compatible
It’s possible to have devices implanted that allows you to sit with someone else and hear their thoughts or think about someone and send them a message without a phone
  • Nonverbal communication is somewhat of a solved problem but what is not solved is the end-to-end use and streamlined packaging
It’s hard to measure the usefulness of devices in the space but you can think of how much information you’re getting in the brain – there’s no reason you can’t interface with millions of neurons with Neuralink potential technologies
There is some evidence that EMFs can alter the function of neural tissue
It’s likely that energy levels involved in Bluetooth headphones and devices is so tiny that we’re outside the range of tumor-causing levels
You’re getting bombarded with ionizing radiation no matter where you live so the body is assumed to have ways of cleansing
Don’t worry about heat effects from devices either – your body is capable of carrying heat away
Brain-machine interfaces have the potential to learn from the nervous system they’re supporting
With potential BMI & AI, you’re taking a crude software intelligence that can adapt to firing in the brain and coupling it with human intelligence, allowing the two to learn from each other
People will get better at using Neuralink and Neuralink will get better at understanding signals and shifts in signals