Emotions, Learning, and the Brain: Exploring the Educational Implications of Affective Neuroscience by Mary Helen Immordino-Yang
  • If you’re interested in diving deeper into Dr. Mary Helen Immordino-Yang’s work, her book provides a comprehensive exploration of how emotions, learning, and the brain intersect
Dr. Mary Helen Immordino-Yang is a professor of education and psychology at the University of Southern California (@CandleUSC) and the Director of the Center for Affective Neuroscience, Development, Learning, and Education
  • In this episode, Dr. Mary Helen Immordino-Yang discusses her groundbreaking research on emotions, self-awareness, and social interactions, and their impact on learning and personal growth, providing insights on how education can be transformed to foster better learning outcomes and accommodate diverse learning styles
Host- Andrew Huberman (@hubermanlab)
The brain’s role in controlling the body goes beyond basic regulation; it involves the construction of beliefs, emotions, and experiences
Embodiment plays a crucial role in the brain-body conversation, and the brain’s ability to represent and map the body’s state is foundational for consciousness
  • The brain and body are interdependent, and our sense of self is shaped by interactions with others and cultural contexts
Our biology is inherently social, and our species relies on social relationships for survival and the formulation of our sense of self
The brain is a specialized organ that provides the processing power to construct various mental states and imaginings
The brain imposes its constructed mental states back onto the body, influencing physiological responses
The brain-body conversation occurs simultaneously across multiple time scales, from immediate neurochemical interactions to broader hormonal changes
  • Humans can tap into the dynamic possibility spaces of the brain-body conversation to construct meaningful chains of ideas and experiences over time, forming narratives and personal meaning
Huberman is fascinated by the idea that early interactions with the world create powerful feelings that become templates for recognition and meaning throughout life
  • These awe-inspiring experiences can vary in circumstances but evoke similar feelings, leading to a search for that same sense of awe or inspiration later in life
  • The feeling is consistent, even as circumstances change from childhood to adolescence and into adulthood
  • Memories of childhood experiences, such as being captivated by tropical fish in a pet store, can evoke the same feeling in the present moment
The brain-body connection is bi-directional, and happening simultaneously, making it difficult to attribute feelings solely to the body or brain
The child’s ability to conceptualize love and express it through abstract ideas shows how meaning is constructed and connected to physiological attachment
  • The development of conceptualization allows for mental elaborations and meaning-making from basic physiological sensations
  • This process leads to the formation of beliefs, poems, love songs, and other mental states that expand upon the initial physiological experiences
Emotions are basic physiological states that exist along a continuum, such as varying degrees of love or anger
  • Approximately 10 to 30 core emotions are recognized and categorized throughout life, forming the basis of our emotional experiences
The process of recognizing and categorizing emotions allows our nervous system to navigate the complex world and adapt to its demands
Basic physiological mechanisms underlie emotions and serve as regulatory capacities to keep us alive and adjust to internal and external needs
The process of conjuring emotions involves complex and iterative processes that develop into consciousness and mental awareness
  • Emotions about physical and abstract experiences recruit similar brain systems, such as the hypothalamus and anterior insula
Emotions based on stories and mental constructs become more prominent in humans and are developed and refined over time
Development across the lifespan involves building more facility in conjuring stories and making sense of the complexities of others’ experiences
The dynamic interplay between basic emotions and the need to construct narratives forms the basis for beliefs, values, and identities
The visual system progresses from basic building blocks, such as recognizing edges and colors, to more complex processes like facial recognition and motion perception
The representation of emotions goes beyond the hierarchical organization seen in the visual system
  • Emotions involve the integration of basic somatic experiences, such as physical and emotional pain, with contextual and narrative elements
The development of emotions is characterized by a build-up of examples and experiences that map to various emotional states
  • The addition of narrative and context fundamentally changes the representation of emotions in the brain
Brain scanning experiments have identified a network of brain areas known as the default mode network (DMN) that plays a crucial role in emotional processing
  • The DMN includes regions in the back middle of the head and lateral parietal regions
  • Initially, DMN was discovered through neuroimaging experiments that contrasted resting states with focused mental tasks
During rest and daydreaming, the DMN becomes active and allows for imagination, envisioning the future, and mental simulations
  • Activation of the DMN occurs when individuals engage in effortful mental tasks that require imposing cultural, social, and contextual knowledge, such as understanding emotions in stories
    • The DMN is uniquely activated when individuals appreciate stories that require deep contextual knowledge and complex inferences
    • Experimental studies have demonstrated that specific stories can activate the DMN, and individual psychological reactions predict differential DMN activation
  • The DMN is involved in generating narratives, making inferences, and understanding the emotional states of others based on contextual cues
The DMN also plays a role in processing emotions related to admiration for skill, both physical and cognitive, as well as emotions related to ethical interpretations and character judgments
Transcendent experiences involving the DMN lead to reflections on self-identity and a desire for personal growth or making a positive impact
The layering of physical actions, sensory perception, cultural narratives, and meaning gives rise to uniquely human emotional experiences
The meaning attributed to experiences can override the importance of valence, such as when suffering for the greater good becomes desirable
  • The ability to construct meaning and develop emotions over time is a defining characteristic of human emotional processing
While some emotions may be similar across individuals, there can be variations in the intensity or interpretation of those emotions
The music we listen to during our adolescence and teen years can shape our emotional templates and help us recognize and understand extreme feeling states
  • Certain stimuli, such as speeches or music, can evoke emotions and feelings that are reminiscent of past experiences or states we have felt before
The ability to emotionally connect and be transported by stories or media can vary among individuals
  • Some have little narrative distancing and others experience strong emotional responses
Narrative distancing refers to the ability to maintain a psychological separation between oneself and the emotional experiences portrayed in media or stories
  • The presence or absence of narrative distancing is influenced by personal experiences, cultural values, and exposure to violence or intense emotions
When we feel inspired or motivated by external stimuli, it may involve a combination of mapping to past experiences and an active imposition of our own interpretive power onto the situation
We continually develop and refine our emotional experiences and the stories we tell ourselves about them throughout our lives
Our ability to experience new emotions may be limited, but we can continue to have new and evolving feelings that are shaped by our experiences and the narratives we create
The way humans experience the world is influenced by the way they narrate and interpret events
  • The example of genocide or the Holocaust demonstrates how people can turn on each other despite having empathy and love for others
Shifting the narrative and dehumanizing others allows people to impose different values and beliefs, distancing themselves from empathy
  • Studies have shown that under certain conditions, anyone can respond to an authoritarian figure and engage in harmful actions
Suppressing empathy can occur when the focus shifts from the other person’s suffering to one’s own story of suffering
Developing dispositions to question motives, deconstruct assumptions, and engage with other perspectives can protect against harmful actions
Educational experiences should focus on developing curiosity, open-mindedness, and flexibility in engaging with knowledge, rather than owning and imposing it
Reinforcing biases through social media and echo chambers can hinder the deconstruction of beliefs and values
Individuals have a responsibility to reflect on themselves, deconstruct preferences, and query values and beliefs for their impact on others and the world
Emotions drive thinking, and mental flexibility requires rising above and transcending default narratives to consider broader implications
Emotions are the fundamental drivers of thinking, decision-making, relationship building, community lives, and personal well-being
  • Emotions imbue individuals with the responsibility to develop dispositions to systematically question and reframe beliefs and values when necessary
Following diverse social media accounts allows for exposure to different perspectives and learning
The commonality among individuals is the pursuit of dopamine, the universal currency of experiences
Siloed thinking and exposure to only certain ideas contribute to divisiveness, amplified by social media
Cognitive dissonance and discomfort with disagreement can be observed with curiosity rather than disconnection, leading to potential adjustments in thinking
The pandemic highlighted the clash of divergent trajectories and information sources
Concrete actions in education can be taken to foster more encompassing learning and worldview:
Education for younger individuals:
  • Promote exposure to diverse ideas and perspectives
  • Teach critical thinking skills to evaluate and analyze information
  • Encourage empathy and understanding of others’ experiences
  • Foster curiosity and open-mindedness
Education for all individuals:
  • Engage in lifelong learning and seek out diverse sources of information
  • Challenge one’s own beliefs and biases regularly
  • Develop the skill of listening actively and empathetically to different perspectives
  • Encourage respectful dialogue and constructive conversations
The individual is responsible to seek knowledge, engage with diverse perspectives, and apply these principles in their personal and educational lives
Critique of the current education system:
  • The Western education system has problematic beliefs about knowledge and what is worth knowing
  • Discourages exploration of ideas and engagement with complex perspectives
  • Emphasizes learning outcomes and time-limited assessments
Alternative education systems:
  • Highlight the performance assessment consortium in New York City
  • Focus on in-depth intellectual projects that span months to years
  • Engage students in multi-disciplinary projects, involving teachers and community experts
  • Encourage exploration, self-reflection, and presentation of work
  • Emphasize intellectual curiosity and systematic questioning
Preschool education:
  • Recognize the importance of age-appropriate activities, curiosity, and hands-on exploration
Critique of traditional education at higher levels:
  • The contrast between early education and standard educational systems
  • Inhibits natural curiosity and deep thinking about ideas
  • Encourages a passive learning approach
  • Disrupts the intrinsic human proclivity for meaningful engagement with ideas
The shift in education approach:
  • Promote engagement with curiosity and meaningful thinking throughout the education system
  • Create environments that foster curiosity and deep learning.
  • Value student-driven inquiry and exploration
  • Encourage critical thinking and questioning of established knowledge
  • Recognize the role of intrinsic motivation and the dopamine system
Emotional disconnect and disengagement in traditional education:
  • Focus on performance as the primary emotional buzz
  • Neglect of individual interests and preferences
  • Emotional dissociation and disengagement for students who don’t connect with the material
The expectation for rote learning and performance over intrinsic pleasure:
  • In preschool, kindergarten, and first grade, kids are allowed to explore and engage with learning in a more open and curiosity-driven manner
  • As kids progress through the education system, the focus on high-stakes accountability measures and performance outcomes increases, shifting the emphasis away from intrinsic motivation and curiosity
  • Basic skills like math, biology, or psychology are important, and not everyone may naturally excel at or enjoy them 
  • It becomes crucial to find ways to evoke appreciation and engagement in these subjects
Emotion plays a central role in learning
  • The emotions we associate with a subject determine what we focus on and learn about
When emotions are primarily about outcomes and performance, that becomes the main focus of learning
  • However, when emotions are about the ideas and concepts in a subject, it leads to a deeper engagement and understanding
Educators can engage students by setting up rich problem spaces and meaningful tasks that pique their curiosity
  • Starting with what students find interesting and connecting academic skills to their personal interests can foster appreciation and engagement
The current education system places more emphasis on performance and accountability metrics rather than the development of the whole person
Developmental skill on the part of educators is necessary to create environments that support students’ meaning-making, curiosity, and intrinsic motivation
Adolescence is a critical period when many students lose their intrinsic drive for learning, as school becomes more serious and focused on controlling inputs and outputs
There is a fear of giving students agency and autonomy in their learning process, leading to a stifling of their natural curiosity and meaning-making abilities
The current educational approach can contribute to mental health crises, especially in adolescents
Adults should support young people in becoming reflective, systematic, and rigorous in their thinking, encouraging them to deconstruct and reconstruct their beliefs and understandings iteratively
School expectations often favor settling quickly onto one solution rather than sitting with uncertainty and exploring multiple possibilities
Providing safe and appropriate spaces for students to grapple with complex questions can foster the development of critical thinking, empathy, and ethical decision-making skills
The current education system often fails to serve students who do not fit well within its structure, leading to struggles and “Failure to Launch” scenarios
The system’s shortcomings reflect a need for change in how education is delivered
The best teachers exhibit two key qualities:
  • Expertise in their field, allowing them to engage students with clarity and relevance
  • The ability to switch between the role of an expert and a novice, displaying intellectual curiosity and learning alongside the students
This approach ignites the emotional systems of learners’ brains and enhances the learning experience
Personal experiences in high school highlight the negative impact of a rigid system that prioritizes standardized testing over students’ well-being and individual growth
Dr. Immordino-Yang grew up on a “gentleman’s farm” with a surgeon father and animals.
Her experiences:
  • Got involved in education and interacted with students from different backgrounds
  • Didn’t enjoy school and felt like she didn’t fit in
  • Developed a passion for the natural world and had a talent for making information inspiring
  • Engaged in experiential learning, exploring cultures, languages, and building things
Her career path:
  • At 23, due to a hand injury, convinced the Massachusetts Board of Education to allow her to teach AP biology and physics
  • Taught seventh grade full-time in a South Boston school
    • Developed an interdisciplinary science curriculum due to changes in state requirements
    • The school had a diverse student population:
      • 81 languages spoken out of 1100 students
      • Teaching approach:
        • Students used scientific inquiry to explore identities and cultural differences
        • Deep class discussions and integrated biology and culture
      • Ignited passion for:
        • Bringing together science, culture, and adolescent development
        • Using scientific ways of knowing as a tool for understanding oneself and the world
Challenges in the current cultural landscape:
  • We are currently in a culture war and a divisive space
  • There is a fear of being canceled and the inability to explore ideas openly
Navigating the landscape and fostering open-mindedness:
  • Considers the demonstration of the value of openness to ideas as a necessary step
Dr. Immordino-Yang believes that any idea should be open to discussion, but it should be subject to rigorous analysis and critique to avoid blindly accepting ideas as true
  • Advocates for tolerance for all ideas and the pursuit of core truths or trajectories
Early introduction to discussions:
  • Questions whether elementary school children should engage in discussions about current political landscapes
  • Raises the concept of a safe space, wondering if it should be defined as a space where no one gets offended or a space where all ideas can be openly discussed
  • Calls for further consideration and definition of what constitutes a safe space in educational settings
Emotions are not just filters, but they are the drives that push us to think about specific things
Understanding something thoroughly and interrogating it complexly is valuable as a scientist
Fear of knowing and engaging with others is deeply threatening
Developing spaces of trust where ideas can be engaged with and taken from oneself is important
  • It is necessary to create spaces for deconstructing our assumptions and engaging with the assumptions of others
Common ground can be built through deconstructing and reconciling building blocks, even in disagreement
Reading comments and criticisms helps in understanding different perspectives and clarifying one’s own position
Appreciating and articulating someone else’s opposition to our position helps in understanding our own stance
Classroom rules, such as not swearing at people, are important for constructive discourse
Open discourse requires a certain level of decorum and challenging one’s own stances
Debates and exercises that require arguing from the other perspective can be valuable in appreciating different viewpoints
Appreciating perspectives and using intellectual engagement rather than physical confrontation are crucial
Learning to appreciate different perspectives is valuable and can be facilitated through structured exercises and discussions
There is a difference between processing immediate observable information and constructing narratives that involve conceptual, experiential, and emotional knowledge
  • The default mode network is associated with constructing narratives and elaborative thinking, while direct action and vigilance require the deactivation of this network
Feeling unsafe or threatened hinders the ability to engage in alternate perspectives and construct meaningful narratives
Having multiple social media handles in Japan allows individuals to embody different versions of themselves safely, representing different dimensions of their persona that drive their decision-making
Professional wrestling allows for the embodiment of different personas, creating characters that are agreed upon to be not real
The brain tends to collapse identities and makes efficient categorizations of people, often conflating the actor with the roles they play
The ability to embody different aspects of self and transiently embody personas of others can facilitate the exploration of ideas and perspectives
Siloing into specific ideological camps and rejecting opposing ideas is contrary to the productive exploration of idea space
The education system, starting at a young age, can play a role in fostering emotional engagement, teaching about emotional systems, and promoting the exploration of different perspectives
Understanding one’s own emotions and the emotions of others can help develop empathy and the ability to appreciate multiple viewpoints
Dr. Immordino-Yang mentions that the ability to parse and learn differs among individuals and proposes exploring practical solutions to support diverse learners
  • She shares a personal anecdote about her son’s discomfort with a behavior chart in school and how she addressed it, highlighting the importance of understanding and addressing individual discomfort or dissatisfaction in educational settings
Dr. Immordino-Yang emphasizes the significance of deconstructing problematic ideas, narratives, and assumptions in civic discourse to foster trust, shared understanding, and create inclusive societies
She discusses the illusion of safety when only certain voices are heard, emphasizing the need for free speech for everybody to encourage diverse perspectives and prevent echo chambers
Dr. Immordino-Yang encourages embracing the fact that we all have different aspects within ourselves, allowing for better management of reactions to things we perceive as not being part of ourselves
She acknowledges that individual stances and disagreements can stem from developmental wiring but emphasizes the importance of understanding and managing these differences for productive engagement and personal growth
Mirror neurons were once believed to be a specialized type of neuron present in the brains of humans and Old World primates, including macaque monkeys
  • However, recent research suggests that there are no such specific mirror neurons as initially hypothesized
  • Instead, the brain is organized into convergent and divergent zones, where processing comes together and then spreads back out in networks and loops
The concept of mirror neurons was linked to the idea of goal-directed action and perception, which was observed by developmental scholars like Jean Piaget in the early 20th century
Children were seen as imposing logic and schemas onto the world, systematically testing their hypotheses and adjusting their expectations based on feedback
The idea behind mirror neurons is not the existence of specialized neurons firing when observing others, but rather the imposition of our own expectations onto the world
Mirror regions in the brain are deeply interconnected and involved in planning goal-oriented actions and perceiving their outcomes
  • The activation of mirror regions occurs when we intuitively understand and share the goals of others’ actions
The wiring of our nervous system is inherently social, and we have a natural proclivity to appreciate and understand others’ actions, feelings, and experiences by leveraging our own
Mirroring activations are stronger when we share goals and experiences, and weaker when we distance ourselves from those goals and actions
Our ability to engage with others, simulate their experiences based on our own, and infer their goals and feelings is essential to being human
  • However, it’s important to recognize that there’s also a layer of learned, cultural expectations that shape our perceptions and interpretations of reality
The dynamic interplay between our own expectations and the cultural co-construction of meaning influences how we understand and mirror others’ experiences
Dr. Immordino-Yang’s son has been doing deliberate cold exposure through cold showers and reported not getting sick since starting this practice
The spike of adrenaline from the cold exposure is neuroprotective, but chronic stress is not beneficial
  • It is suggested that hot showers, hot baths, and sauna-type activities are better for reducing stress on an ill system
The goal of education should be the development of the person, not just learning
  • Learning should be a means to change who people are capable of becoming